Ulster Families with Argyll Connections

[Barry R McCain]

I am doing research on Ulster families with links to Argyll, would appreciate a note from those families that have confirmed Argyll ancestry.

Barry R McCain

[NancyElderPetersen]

Hi Barry,
  As Administrator of the ELDER DNA project, I have sent several ELDER kits from
most of our ELDER lines to the ULSTER Heritage DNA chart.
  My brother's kit #10042 is in your "ELDER CLAN" section, matching
11 kits which I have labelled "Franklin Co PA" on my ELDER webpage
at
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Elder

  My notes for ELDER in ARGYLL are posted
at
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~nancyelder/ed/Argyll.htm

We haven't proved a paper trail connection to ARGYLL yet, but have some strong
evidence for connection.

Descendant of this ELDER family matches my brother's DNA:
from book:
"David and Isabella Elder and those who came after them : a
compilation of such data as can be obtained concerning the Elder
family as represented by the David Elder branch"
     Elder, Orville.  Publisher: [Elder], 1928. 126 p. :
In Allen County Public Library, Ft. Wayne, IN:
Call Number 929.2 EL231E   - Genealogy Department
"The Elder Family are of Scotch origin of the County of Argyle and on the maternal side,
 the head of the house of Argyle the mother of the first Duke of Argyle being an Elder.               [PEERAGE notes - no ELDER]
The first one of the name to come to America was one John Elder who
with several of his family left Scotland about the middle of the 17th
century, the others went to the North of Ireland but he (John) came
to America, settling in Southeastern Penn., and the descendants are
the family to which we belong, he being my great grandfather's great grandfather.
 My mother's family the Wrays were also of Scottish origin.
My grandfather James Wray came to America about 1795
settling at Philadelphia, the rest of his family coming about 1815.
My grandfather's mother was cousin to Robbie Burns."

Carolyn Shearer wrote:
 >Was doing some data entry on the Sharps of Cumberland Co, PA.
All the old bios agree that Thomas Sharp 'born Ireland' married Margaret Elder.
 I was doing some searching on the LDS site, to see what anyone said about their marriage date.
Could not find it, but did get a hit on the baptisms of the first 5 children.
 They were all baptized in [Campbeltown], Argyll, Scotland. ...
The [Campbeltown] baptisms read like a census of early Cumberland and Franklin Co's:
Elders, Stewarts, Witherspoon, Alexanders, Armour, Barr etc.

*****
Current online listing:
  Dr Malcolm R. Elder
 Carradale and Campbeltown Argyll PA28 6QG
 Phone number:
 01583 431376

*****
and his ARGYLL meeting:
Dr. ELDER  of Carradale, Campbeltown -2006
NHS Highland
Argyll & Bute CHP Management Team Meeting
22 August 2006
Lorn & Islands District General Hospital, Oban
"9.1.2 GP Out of Hours " (OOH) (maybe emergency hours?)
..."John also advised that currently there is no provision for a GP OOHs in
the Carradale and Skipness area. The GPs in Campbeltown currently do
not wish to take on the provision of cover for this area, a meeting has
been arranged with the Campbeltown GPs for September. Meantime Dr
Elder has agreed to continue to provide OOH cover. "

Early ELDER entry:
From the Book of Old Edinburgh Club, Vol. IX
Issued to Members May 1918
Published for the Club by T & A Constable, Edinburgh 1916
Extracts from the Article
"ORIGINAL TOLBOOTH RECORDS" by John A. Fairley.
  Brian Orr writes:
>I found this attached tale of a Robert Elder of Kintyre ( west coast
of Argyllshire) who was arrested (warded) and held in the Edinburgh
Tolbooth accused of murder in July 1684; subsequently the Lord
Advocate himself, Sir George "Bloody" McKenzie of Rosehaugh, admitted
there was no evidence and that he should be released. "
Page 141 --JULY 11th 1684
  ROBERT ELDER of KINTYRE, ARGYLL - sent to EDINBURGH for murder
at
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~nancyelder/ed/RobertElderKintyre1.jpg
and
Page 165 --NOVEMBR 18th 1684
 ROBERT ELDER of KINTYRE, ARGYLL - is released
at
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~nancyelder/ed/RobertElderKintyre2.jpg

CENSUS entries (and others)
1841 ARGYLL Census-- Ancestry.com
                                    Birthplace          Civil Parish
Charles Elder    abt 1766  Argyll, Scotland   Campbeltown   Argyll   507
Eliza Elder       abt 1781   Scotland             Campbeltown  Argyll  507
Margaret Elder  abt 1766  Argyll, Scotland    Campbeltown  Argyll  507
Mary Elder       abt 1816   Argyll, Scotland    Jura              Argyll  539
Sarah Elder      abt 1801   Scotland             Campbeltown    Argyll  507

Robert ELDER, b. abt 1809  (Father: JOHN b. abt 1782, INVERARARY, ARGYLL)
Minister, Kilbrandon (1831-34) - Isle of Seil.....
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~nancyelder/ed/GlasgowUnivRobert.htm

Books from Univ. of Glasgow
PHOTO of page:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~nancyelder/ed/GlasgowUnivRobert.jpg

Transcription:
"10556 Robertus ELDER f. n. Max: Joannis Artif;   [eldest son of John]
Campbletown, Argath: [Argyll]   M.A. 1825.  D.D. 1871.
Minister of (1) Kilbrandon, 1831-34,            [On Isle of SEIL Southwest of Oban]
(2) Killin, 1834-38,                                   [Killan - 43 miles northwest of Perth]
(3) St. Paul's Edinburgh, 1838-43,
(4) Free St. Paul's there, 1843-47,
(5) the Free Church, Rothesay, 1847-92.       [Rothesay, Bute  - 69 miles from Campbeltown]
Moderator of the General Assembly of the Free Church, 1871.
Died 30th March, 1892.

Always hoping for more connections!
---Nancy Elder Petersen
Host, ELDER DNA project
Vancouver, Washington State, USA
NancyElderPetersen@yahoo.com

[NancyElderPetersen]

 Another view of ELDER kits in ELDER Y-Chromosome DNA Project
Summary:
January 2009

70 ELDER DNA kits are now divided into at least
6 separate groups by their DNA matches,
plus others that don't match any ELDER group.

1. FRANKLIN CO PA group: 24 matching entries
Includes known descendants
of "ROBERT ELDER d. 1807 FRANKLIN CO PA."
Also includes 4 descendants of
"GEORGE ELDER, d. 1800 Bedford Co PA,"
and one known descendant of
"DAVID ELDER and MARGERY STEWART" - FRANKLIN CO PA.
(Those 3 Rev. War Soldiers could be brothers.)
Others matching:
JAMES ELDER SR. of Clarion Co PA
JOHN ELDER, Mercer Co PA
JOHN ELDER, Beaver Co PA
JAMES AND JOHN ELDER of RANDOLPH CO NC
ANDREW R. ELDER- March 15,1795 -July 1854 in Alexander County, NC
JOHN ELDER, res. Iredell Co NC 1800
SAMUEL ELDER, Sevier Co TN
JACOB ELDER d. 1818 Lincoln Co KY
JOHN ELDER, b. abt 1814 NC
James Elder, d. 1991 WI

Title:    Genealogy of David Elder and Margery Stewart
Author: Elder, Thomas Alexander, 1843- (Main Author)
To view a digital version of this book see Brigham Young Univ. webpage:
at
http://patriot.lib.byu.edu/cdm4/document.php?CISOROOT=/FH23&CISOPTR=60225&REC=20


****
2. GLASGOW group: 5 Newly traced Descendants from Scotland.
(Not matching other ELDER lines)

****
3. MAINE ELDER group (4 entries):

#23005
A. SAMUEL TYNG ELDER (matches 12/12, 35/37, 64/67 with England)
b. 1784 Portland, Cumberland, ME,
d. 1829 Moss Point, Jackson Co., MS

#20923
B. ANDREW ELDER d. 1807 Madison Co., KY

#87786
C. ALEXANDER ELDER,b. 1796, Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Northumberland, England

#100589
D. GEORGE ELDER (b. 1811 E. Anstruther, Fife - d. Ontario, Canada)
JOHN ELDER (b. 1769 Crail, Fife)
may be related to JOHN ELDER, b. 1806 Crail, Fife - immigr. NJ/CT

****
4. PAXTANG PA: 6 entries
ANCESTOR and RELATIVE:
A."ROBERT ELDER, b. 1679 Scotland-- d. PAXTANG PA" (3 entries)
[his son "Rev. John ELDER of PAXTANG"]
[Excellent Descendant's paper trail with DNA to match this
very different "I = VIKING HAPLOGROUP"]
B."Robert Scott ELDER" --his ELDER family still lives in
ELDERS RIDGE PA--they have an ELDER family BIBLE to
prove he is the 10th ROBERT in the PAXTANG line.
C. JOHN ELDER of BALLYMONEY, Co. ANTRIM, Northern Ireland (2)
D. ROBERT ELDER of Inch Island, Co. Donegal, Ireland
E. Robert H. ELDER, b. abt 1828 Indiana Co PA
d. 1892 Dallas County Iowa
F. William Hoyt Elder, b. 1867, Spartanburg, SC
matches 66/67-- STEWART #5830, 36246, etc.
Ballymoney ELDER and STEWART:
at
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~nancyelder/ed/BallymoneyData.htm
****

5. PETER ELDER of VA group: 7 entries
Excellent paper trails for these matching entries.
(Lee ELDER book)

****

6. WILLIAM ELDER (Catholic of Frederick Co MD): 5 entries
Excellent paper trail for 4 of these matching entries.
Other ELDER researchers have known CATHOLIC paper trails.

7. More Different ELDER DNA in file which doesn't match any ELDER,
some of them in Scotland!

--Nancy Elder Petersen
Host, ELDER DNA project
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Elder

[chuckccampbell]

We have a strong FAMILY history tie to Argyll.  Our famliy name is Campbell.  Our family history says that we were moved from Argyll to Ulster and then they moved to Franklin County, Pennsylvania.  From there they migrated to Loudoun County Virginia in the late 1790's early 1800's.  From there they moved to Ohio (1814) and settled in Morrow/Marion counties in the villages of Caledonia and North Caanan.  Some of the family is still there, but my grandfather, Charles F. Campbell (b.1874), moved to California in 1902...I was born in California in 1944, my father was James Martin "Bill" Campbell, born in 1906.  My Haplo group is odd for Argyll, Scotland, it is R1b1b2a1b7c or R-L2.  From what I know of DNA this is more likely England or the Lowland Scottish areas.  There might be a wrong side of the blanket somewhere along the way...either in Ireland or Pennsylvania/Virginia in the 1700's.

Chuck C. Campbell
FT-DNA 105647

[NancyElderPetersen]

I hope we can find some Campbell/Elder connections!

More about ELDER in Northern Scotland:

JOHN ELDER, cartographer, born in Caithness in 1500's,
contributed to publication of:
MERCATOR ATLAS OF EUROPE
see:
 http://www.walkingtree.com/excerptbarber.html
MAPPING BRITAIN FROM AFAR
Chapter Excerpt by Peter M. Barber
... "In France he presented Mary, Queen of Scots, with an autograph letter and
     (in a display of indirect vanity?) a fanciful map of the New Utopia ostensibly by his eight-year-old pupil,  Lord Darnley."
...
"In 1973 D.G. Moir suggested the John Elder (who signed himself Eldar)
was responsible for the depiction of Scotland on Mercator's map of 1564..."

***
Sailing Directions For The North Coast, by George Watson
http://www.caithness.org/history/articles/sailingdirections.htm
 ...."The most likely candidate was John Elder, who was born in
 Caithness and was brought up In Skye and Lewis.
In 1543 Elder sent a letter and a 'plotte' or map of Scotland to
 King Henry VIII. As a cartographer he is
 likely to have had the type of information which Lindsay needed."

Also in ONLINE BOOK:
"The Highlanders of Scotland"
By William F. Skene, D.C.L. (1836)
Edited by Alexander MacBain, M.A., L.L.D. (1902)
Transcribed Chapters posted on Electric Scotland webpages.
Home page:
http://www.electricscotland.com/history/highlanders/index.htm
****
Searching for ELDER in each chapter,
finally found the same JOHN ELDER (mapmaker, b. Caithness)
Part 2 Chapter 1
http://www.electricscotland.com/history/highlanders/part2chap1.htm
...
" The first proof of the existence of this tradition which I shall bring forward,
is contained in a letter dated 1542, and addressed to King Henry VIII. of England,
by a person designating himself “John Elder, clerk, a Reddschanke.”

***
More in Google Books
at
http://tinyurl.com/62f3y6
see:
"Pre-reformation Scholars in Scotland in the XVIth Century:
Their Writings and Their Public Services : with a Bibliography and a
List of Graduates from 1500 to 1560"
By William Forbes-Leith
Published by J. MacLehose, 1915
Original from the University of California
Digitized Oct 29, 2007
155 pages
 **
 Pages 54-55 (short bio of John ELDER)
   (other pages have Johannes ELDER, and Adamus ELDAR, etc.)
"John Elder, a member of the Collegiate Church at Dumbarton, became tutor
of the young Lord Darnley. 
He followed the fortunes of the Earl of Lennox when he fled to England.
That John Elder was selected by the Bishop of Orkney as the teacher of the boy abbot,
Abbot Walter Reid, is no small testimony to his capacity and worth.
       The name of "Jean Eldas, pretre ecossois geographe du Roi de France"
 in 1560, occurs in the Registers of the Chambre des Comptes, Paris (see J. Van der Meulen,
"Les Geographes du Roi, etc., " Bulletin de la Societe de Geographie d'Anvers, vol. i. 1878).
 " John Elder was a clever linguist, a good Latinist; and as to his English, he surpassed most
of the natives of the south in the clearness and pleasantness of his style.
He had written also in favour of the royal supremacy of Henry VIII; a popular pamphlet,
setting forth the advantages of the union of England and Scotland--a union into
which King Henry was then endeavouring to coerce Scotland at the point of the sword.
  "The little treatise, which is well known to black-letter collectors, proves
John Elder to have been a man in advance of his time, in regard to statistical wisdom--
the more remarkable, as the author claims to be a Highlander.
  "John Elder signs himself John Redshank--the appellation by which the Highlanders
 were known in the South."

Description for Dunbarton (for my files):
.." on the north bank of the River Clyde where the River Leven flows into the Clyde estuary.
Dumbarton is split between the council areas of Argyll and Bute and West Dunbartonshire.
Dumbarton Castle, sitting on top of Dumbarton Rock, dominates the area.
Dumbarton was a Royal burgh between 1222 and 1975.
    The castle was an important place during the Wars of Independence and was used to imprison William Wallace for a short time after his capture by the English. It was also from here that Mary, Queen of Scots, was conveyed to France for safety as a child. Mary was trying to reach Dumbarton Castle when she suffered her final defeat at Langside."
***

"The origin of the Elder name as Sept of Mackintosh Clan,
 by Victor ELDER:
"In 1160, Malcomb IV called upon the Clan Macduff
to help him withstand an attempt on his throne.
Duncan Macduff, Chief of the Macduff Clan, sent his son Shaw. At the
end of the war, Shaw was rewarded with his own noble rank and lands
and was known as Macintosh. This much we know, Supposedly, Shaw
Macduff Macintosh had several sons, the oldest of whom was known as
"The Eldar" (original spelling) and his decendants adopted this as
their surname, to distinguish their line from the rest of the clan.
The Elder name is very common in Scotland and has always been
associated with the Clan Macintosh (MacKintosh) ...."

[Edward]

It is alleged that my Family went from Maybole (Ayrshire) to the Plantation of Kintyre, and subsequently to Ulster. Certainly the same Christian names are found, Matthew Robert and James though the name has changed from Andrew to Andrews. We have been in Ulster for some time (at least 4 generations until I moved back to Scotland). Ironically I developed strong ties with Argyll. I worked in Iona for 7 summers as a student and was the Minister in Ardrishaig for 6 years I now live in Haddington.   

[Barry R McCain]

It is interesting reading that a family member wrote down Redshank with his name.  This term literally means Highland Gaelic Scot, it is used in both Ireland and Scotland.  Used to be a military term, meaning those Gaels, usually from Argyll or the southern Hebrides,  that spent their summer in Ireland fighting the English, circa 1560s to 1690s.  Later, the term was just meant any Highlander or Islands Gael, where ever they might be. It is a statement of ethnicity within the Gaelic community and in the lands to where they traveled.  My own McCain family would be termed Redshank by many.

Barry R McCain

[NancyElderPetersen]

I enjoyed this video:
"ForARGYLL"  YouTube video interview with 13th Duke of ARGYLL (40 years old),
also titled Chief of Clan Campbell, living at INVERARAY CASTLE.
posted at
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-oW80Xp1H0

 INVERARAY CASTLE in ARGYLL - photo and info about
 Duke of Argyll, now also a  "consultant for Chivas Regal Whiskey".
at
http://www.inveraray-castle.com/Pages/content.asp

Torquhil Ian Campbell, 13th Duke of Argyll
at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torquhil_Ian_Campbell,_13th_Duke_of_Argyll

..."On June 8, 2002, he married Eleanor Cadbury, a descendant of the Cadbury chocolate dynasty.
They have two sons, Archibald Frederick Campbell, Marquess of Lorne, and
Lord Rory James Campbell (born 3-2-2006)
and a daughter Lady Charlotte Mary Campbell (born 29-10-2008).
He is also the nephew of Norman Mailer's third wife, journalist Jeanne Campbell
and the first cousin of their daughter actress Kate Mailer."

map:
GLASGOW to INVERARAY (near Newtown, Argyll)
  1 hour, 19 minutes,  63.17 miles
at
http://tinyurl.com/bpsxcc

ZoomOut one click to see Oban (north-west)
and Campbeltown (south-west)

[Barry R McCain]

Chuck, on your Haplotype, as I work with this daily I've been warned by the geneticists to be very careful about assuming on haplogroup, like yours for instance, is not indigenous to in this case Argyll.

There is a lot of wild, very wild, speculation on the internet and assurances that one haplogroup means this and another that.  Right now it seems like there is a substrata of several lessor haplogroups indigenous to old Dál Riada in addition to the dominant one.  In short, we are still learning and must make ourselves remember this. 

The Campbells, or Caimbeul family is the quintessential Argyll family of course. My own family, McCain, or Mac Eáin, is often very incorrectely linked to the Mac Dónaill McCains, in fact, my group connected to the Earls of Argyll, i.e. the Campbells of Glassary.  They in turn were responsible for many Highland Gaels from Glassary moving to Donegal and Antrim in Ulster.  Giolla Espuig Caimbeul, circa mid 1500s was one of the most dynamic Gaels ever to live, he was very active in Ireland, in helping those Irish chiefs that were is close allies, Ó Dónaill in Donegal and Mac Dónaill in Antrim.

Barry R McCain

[Barry R McCain]

Just a note to all those families with Ulster and Argyll connections;  I've located some interesting primary source records on the Redshank families;  Redshank was the term applied to  families from the Scottish Gaeltacht, usually Argyll, that settled in Ulster circa 1500s.  I often wondered how these families fared when the Plantation Scots arrived in 1609, and I have been reading through the documents tying to find a mention of the fate of these families with considerable success also.

I will be doing some writing on this in future. If you get the next issue of The Highlander Magazine, I have an article in there that mentions these families.  This is a large topic, and not much written about to date, we are going to change that.

One aspect of these families that fascinates me, is they often self describe their ethnicity as Scotch-Irish and I am researching the details as to why and how these obvious Highland Scottish Gaels in Ulster in time became part of what we now call Scotch-Irish.

Many thanks for everyone posting on this topic.  It helps. 

More, much more, later,

Barry R McCain

[Barry R McCain]

I have been locating some excellent new sources concerning those Highland and Island Scottish families that moved into Ulster in the 1500s, especially those that went into Donegal, Tyrone, and Antrim.  Some of these families later relocated into County Derry, et cetera of course.  I am making up a list of surnames as I find them which I will post later.  Dr William Roulston has been good enough to forward to me several primary sources that mention these families, often called 'Redshanks' in the English of that time. This is sort of virgin historical ground as this large group of people do not often get mentioned in history books.  Many went on to become part of the Scotch-Irish in Colonial America of course. 

Most of their DNA is typical Gael as you might imagine, that is R1b1b2a1b5 and then subclades off of that, but we have also a couple of bona fide Gall Gaels showing up.  These have Norse paternal ancestry.  Gall Gael just means 'Stranger Gael' and refers to the Gaelicised Norse that lived in Argyll, the Hebrides, Gallowayshire, etc. After the Viking Age there developed an curious hybrid society of Norse and Gaels, produced by many intermarriages, shared folkways and culture, even Gaelic families in this area adopted these folkways.  Part of their culture was the use of Norse weapons, armour, maritime technology, etc.

[cabooky]

Hi Barry

I've been working with the Clan Cameron DNA Project and we have a group of participants who have a series of strong matches to members of the Ulster Heritage DNA Project. Contact via my email and let's see if we can piece something together out of this.

Kim
ktayca1@sbcglobal.net

[michel120]

Nice post..I hope everyone appreciate your concern...